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Thread: Mood Pictures.

  1. #1
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    Mood Pictures.

    Does anyone have any news on Mood Pictures, I've heard they've been shut down?

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    First of many I hope ..

    ---> Mood Pictures - Hungarian Spanking & BDSM Studio Arrested

    Good riddance to them ..

    Whirly
    If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom
    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    A translation of a Hungarian newspaper article can be found here, along with a discussion to which I contributed as well:

    Adele Haze's blog: S&M video producer in Hungary raided by police

    (The discussion has been very civil and factual so far. Much more so, to be honest, than the one I expect to take place here! *winks to Whirly*)

    If it turns out that the accusations against Mood Pictures are valid (which they deny), then it would be very sad and sombering news indeed - especially for people like me, who have in the past and in good faith defended this producer. As such, I take the story very seriously and I will keep my readers updated about it on my blog (at rohrstockpalast.blogspot.com).

    On the other hand, spanking film producers have been the target of over-zealous police raids in the past - in the UK and elsewhere. And I have seen enough awful, sensationalist reporting over the years to take everything that is written about spanking videos in the mainstream press with a very large grain of salt. Remember the treatment which Lucy and Paul of Northern Spanking received not too long ago? They are two of the loveliest and most well-liked people in the UK scene, and they produce content that is totally unlike Mood's in terms of severity and feel. And still, the tabloid press made them look like dodgy people.

    We have to wait and see where the truth lies. As for Mood, they deny the accusations, and they have a right to a fair trial and to state their side of the story like everyone else who is accused of something.

    In the meantime, the debate is predictable: people who don't like Mood (because of the severe videos, the fact that they employ "vanilla" models, or whatever) will take the story as proof that they were always right, while people like me who like their work will be more skeptical about the accusations.
    Last edited by Ludwig; 03-02-2010 at 23:52.

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    Here is an email I received from Pedro, one of the founders and producers of Mood Pictures. He has no objections against me publishing it, so I am going to use it in my blog post on Friday as well, where I will cover both sides of the story.

    I am just posting the mail as is, without comment, so everyone can look at it as a source in the discussion.

    During the [recent] photo shot for mood-art the studio was raided with a lot of policemen (commando stile), and all of us was arrested, handcuffed. We did not know why.

    Only after keeping us in for 10-12 hours, were we told that a girl went into the police three days after the last ElitePain shooting, telling that she was not let to quit a scene, and was forced to do it (which is obviously not true).

    The police does everything to find evidence against us, the media showed only [reports about] us for a couple of days. You can guess the comments of the vanillas. For exampe: When the police raided the studio, we were doing a photo set, where a girl was bound, and placed in a big box. The media showed the photo like we were holding there kidnapped girls in boxes.

    This will be a very long process I think. And I don't think we will do anything like Mood in the future. So I think Mood Pictures is over.

    That's what I can tell you at the moment. It will be good news for many [who don't like our videos], I think.

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    That mail describes well the video that I linked to, and what they found.. If I saw correctly.. It seems that they also found drugs on the premises..

    Whirls
    If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom
    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    That mail describes well the video that I linked to, and what they found.. If I saw correctly.. It seems that they also found drugs on the premises..
    Whirls
    There are two accusations made against Mood in the story. One, that a model was lied to about the severity / reality of the spanking - in other words, that her consent was not really informed. Secondly, that "the producers ignored her repeated use of the 'safe words' and kept filming, with the producer jumping in after the woman originally assigned to hit her refused to continue."

    Mood Pictures deny these accusations. So that is the issue, which will now certainly be investigated in court.

    As for the drugs mentioned in the article, it is my understanding that this refers to painkillers which were found in the building. It is also my understanding that these were sometimes given to models after a shoot was over, by the nurse which Mood always employed.

    Naturally, I will keep an eye on the story. What I can say for sure is that, at the Mood shoot I took part in, one year ago, all the models knew that the canings would be hard and real. I am positive of that. Actually, several of the models had done other videos with Mood before, so they knew exactly what it is like. There was one new girl who decided that it was too hard and that she couldn't do it. So after four or five strokes, they stopped the scene, untied her and let her go home - there wasn't even an attempt to persuade her to continue.

    You can read all that in my behind-the-scenes report which I wrote at the time, and needless to say, I stand by it.

    Trust me, if the accusations made against Mood Pictures now turn out to be valid, I would be the first to condemn them. I would be mightily pissed off, too, because I defended them in good faith in the past, and it would mean that they mislead me about their practices.
    Last edited by Ludwig; 04-02-2010 at 00:28.

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    Whirly? a new inquisitor around here ?

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    Whirly's not new.
    Neither are her observations.

    Nobody loves a smartarse

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    On the thread so far, we seem to have (self-appointed) counsel for the prosecution and defence, as well as M'lud Whirly.

    I'm happy to sit on the jury, with an appropriate open mind.

    Thanks to Ludwig for a reasonably pragmatic take on this.
    Firm but fair...mostly


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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger59 View Post
    On the thread so far, we seem to have (self-appointed) counsel for the prosecution and defence, as well as M'lud Whirly.
    I'm happy to sit on the jury, with an appropriate open mind.
    Hate to disappoint you, Ranger, but I have neither the time nor the energy for another extended debate about Mood Pictures on this forum. Been there, done that. The general moral questions about severe spanking videos, vanilla models etc. have been discussed to death already. My positions about that are known, and they haven't changed.

    The real question is whether or not the current accusations against Mood are true. If they are, I think we can all agree that Mood are clearly in the wrong and that they should be prosecuted for it. However, none of us was at that recent shoot, so we simply don't know. I may have my strong suspicions about what did or didn't happen because of my own past experiences with Mood, but ultimately, I don't know, either. So all we could do here is speculate, and that is neither a very interesting nor a very prudent thing to do.

    Neither is it my job to act as "counsel for the defence". True, I have defended Mood against crude, outrageous claims in the past, because they simply are not true - all the nonsense about "mentally ill girls" and whatnot. At the same time, I've always been critical of some elements of the Mood MO, too, like the shoddy accuracy of some of their tops. I'm not sure, though, how many people here really took the time to understand and appreciate all sides of my position (another reason for not renewing the discussion here - frankly, there are too many reading comprehension-challenged trolls on BS for my taste, and it gets annoying having to explain the same things over and over again).

    What I do believe is that everyone accused of wrong-doing, including Mood Pictures, has the right to state his own side of things. Since the mainstream press obviously isn't doing much balanced reporting (it rarely does about the subject of BDSM videos), I think we kinky bloggers should at least try to do better. Hence my reprinting of Pedro's email, here and on my blog.

    If you want a prediction from me about the outcome of the whole story (which, again, is mere speculation and not really my job): personally, I do not believe that the accusation of assault will turn out to be justified. If Pedro's version is true (he talked about this in another mail), the girl making the accusations wasn't even tied down during the last 10 minutes of her scene. However, the question that will probably be tried in court is whether or not these videos were legal in Hungary in the first place (what level of injury can one legally consent to under Hungarian law?). So that is where I see it all heading.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    there are too many reading comprehension-challenged trolls on BS for my taste
    They speak highly of you

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    Trolls!!!! .. Let me at 'em!

    Whirls (BS Troll & Sockpuppet hunter)
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    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alexr View Post
    They speak highly of you
    Not a polite thing to say, I know, but these reading comprehension-challenged trolls do exist. I remember the discussion we had last year. I had stated, roughly twenty-seven times already, my own moral position, which is pretty simple, really: as long as 1) all the participants are consenting adults, and 2) no permanent damage is done, I have no moral objections against whatever kind of BDSM or spanking play people want to engage in.

    And then, on page 7 or 8 of the thread, this guy comes in and goes: "But OMG, what about murder and pedophilia?! We have to draw the line somewhere!"

    Convinced me, if I still had any doubts, that I was wasting my time...

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    I donít think anybody is wasting their time engaging in informed debate. I personally donít like to see opinions stifled, however, communities polarise views to that of persistent opinion makers.

    As I have commented before, marginalising views is precisely what the CP/BDSM community donít want and in doing so, deterring people with a genuine contribution such as those with first-hand accounts or new information.

    In the case of Mr. Ludwig, his blog (mods please remove below link if this breaks site rules) includes an unabridged reply from Pedro. For those interested in the facts as they unfold, it is worth a read as is Blog by Adele with comments.

    http://rohrstockpalast.blogspot.com

    Iím certainly not defending Mood, but I am certainly not condemning those that seek to engage in intelligent discussion with regard this situation. My own opinions I have shared with friends, I donít see any merit in forcing those on anybody. Moving on, irrespective of the Mood situation, privacy, freedom are two axioms this community seeks and I for one will be adding this case to others pertinent to the scene.

    In terms of relevance to the CP community, think again. In the past 10, 5 years, consider the change in public and media perception of the scene in general, test cases and precedents set. Like it or not, we are in Europe and cases and actions around Europe are becoming directly or indirectly more relevant, at the very least, opinion forming through media presentation.

    On a lighter note, I was sent the link of the video clip, it was some way into the link before I realised that the clip was reality rather than of a scene! Apparently, I was not alone in this initial misapprehension.

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    Safe words not issue


    Hungo law issue - no consent to harm
    Last edited by lady4mark2; 14-02-2010 at 20:39. Reason: abuse deleted
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    BTW, bakerboy usually only posts on here to plug the products of Boundheat, which is a perfectly respectable site, if slightly OT for this audience, so his comments should not always be taken at face value.

    Batsman
    Last edited by lady4mark2; 14-02-2010 at 20:46. Reason: comment re abuse removed

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    Can this thread please stay on topic and not become personal

    Thanks

    lady4mark2
    When do you know who you really are
    When can you read your own mind
    When do you stop searching
    When you have found what you needed to find

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    Abuse of members is not allowed .Members are allowed to pass comments on thread topic either for or against

    Thanks
    lady4mark2
    When do you know who you really are
    When can you read your own mind
    When do you stop searching
    When you have found what you needed to find

    by me


    "Friendship isn't about who you have known the longest
    It's about those who came and never left your side ...."

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    joeking_bs - Whatever you are taking.. Either up the dose or stop taking it. I know that you are a pusher of certain video products, and you might not like what some people say on topics like this. If you cannot be sensible, then you know what you can do..
    Quote Originally Posted by joeking_bs View Post
    Safe words not issue
    Hungo law issue - no consent to harm
    That of course would be what may be something that will see off the owners/producers of this company IMO.. The evidence is there to be seen in the nasty material that they have produced.. Any jury will find them guilty after watching just small fraction of what they have made.. They are a brutal sadistic group that disgusts me to the core..

    In some ways, the producers of BDSM/Spanking material should be welcoming what has happened so far, as it removes a fair chunk of competition. At the same time it should be taken as a warning to those that produce 'edgy' material to think twice about what they do. I feel that what happens in the case of Mood Pictures will have some impact in this and other countries in the future. I would have thought that if any company in the UK acted in the way that Mood Pictures have. They would be behind bars pretty smartish..

    Ludwig - I am assuming that you have close contact with, and back up what Mood Pictures have been doing as being okay. I find that disturbing, but it doesn't surprise me from some of your past posts..

    What is at the centre of all of this is the legality concerning if people can consent (or in the case of mood pictures) or did consent to the damage that was inflicted on them. Even if they did, from what I understand of the law. You cannot consent to being abused in the way that people are in the films are shown to be.. That does assume the injuries inflicted are real ..

    *Off topic a bit here* In saying all of that. I have some concern of the images in our very own gallery. Which I find way over the top as to the damage inflicted on people. Very worrying IMO...

    Whirls
    If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom
    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    I wonder what the actual legal position is in reference to the incident of consensual harm in the original country of Hungary?

    In the UK I can reference the spanner case
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Spanner

    The use of safe words I don't really understand. Do they make things legal?
    So, you cane someone and they have a safe word and that's okay?
    A safe word is not consent and neither is it the 'law'.
    Last edited by joeking_bs; 14-02-2010 at 22:08. Reason: I farted
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    Mood made a superb product. It makes the pansy crowd whine, but they always will.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dedeaux View Post
    Mood made a superb product. It makes the pansy crowd whine, but they always will.
    That is all a matter of opinion.

    What interests me, is the type of people that search out the type of material that the so called 'pansy crowd' that you mention would shout about.. What sort of warped sense of pleasure do they (the supporters of mood pictures type of material) get out of it. I won't go as far as to say that this type of stuff goes some way to help those that see abusing people as being normality, and in turn it enables them to carry out such things in real life. But it does point in that direction IMO.

    Whirls
    If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom
    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    What interests me, is the type of people that search out the type of material that the so called 'pansy crowd' that you mention would shout about..
    Presumably the BDSM crowd. Mood stuff seems to be much more BDSM than what we here tend to consider spanking.

    What sort of warped sense of pleasure do they (the supporters of mood pictures type of material) get out of it
    Presumably it satisfies the fantasies that those who are into BDSM like to indulge.

    I agree that it's rather sad and somewhat disturbing.

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    'That is all a matter of opinion.

    What interests me, is the type of people that search out the type of material that the so called 'pansy crowd' that you mention would shout about.. What sort of warped sense of pleasure do they (the supporters of mood pictures type of material) get out of it. I won't go as far as to say that this type of stuff goes some way to help those that see abusing people as being normality, and in turn it enables them to carry out such things in real life. But it does point in that direction IMO.'


    Sounds a bit mixed up to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by joeking_bs View Post
    Sounds a bit mixed up to me.
    Take your time and let us know when you have sorted it in your head..

    Whirls
    If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom
    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    Take your time and let us know when you have sorted it in your head..

    Whirls
    Sure, how long you got?

    'I won't go as far as to say that this type of stuff enables them to carry out such things in real life. But it does point in that direction IMO.'

    It doesn't enable (them to carry out such things in real life) but points to them (carrying out such things in real life)

    Ah, I get it now.
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    Only A Matter Of Time.

    Although it is unfortunate that 'Mood' has been raided and would appear they may not operate again in the future, I somehow feel for 'Pedro' and His team. I myself has purchased a video from ' Mood ' in the past and browsed the site on ocassions. I did think it would only be of time before such production would be' Shut Down '.

    Despite what the media may report...I am sure that the models and the team involved in every production has been respected and acted with everyones consent when filming. ' Safe ' words and ' Codes ' are there for a reason. To survive for as long as ' Mood ' did, they must have been doing something right. The sad thing is, how do we know that the person who exposed ' Mood ' to the police wasn't under cover?

    Many a folk will be disappointed that the site has folded, but, of course vanillas everywhere ( which has been mentioned ) will be happy. Strange thing that... There always people somewhere who want to spoil other people's ' Fun ' ( One for better word. ). Not hurting anyone else. Controlled behind ' Closed Doors '. Consenting with those involved.

    Why Can't Some People Sod Off And Mind There Own ' Bloody ' Business.

    ( Please forgive the above use of words. Merely to express 'One's' feelings. )

    I didn't agree with some of ' Moods ' BDSM's video. Some were a little extreme, but , of course , thats what it is ' All ' about...Some folk just like to be taken to their ' Threshold ' and maybe beyond...

    The Thrill Of It All.. To Put ' You In The ' Mood '

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    Mood riddance!

    I've seen some of that Mood stuff, and if it's real (which I doubt) it's sickening. Those young girls are depicted as taking huge and bloody beatings for a handful of florins. I'd like to see some genuine interviews with these girls and hear their genuine accounts.

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    I think there is a market for all types of spanking from mild o the more severe such as mood or Rigid East.
    I think we would all agree as long as it is totally consensual and the girls are paid well then it's fine.
    But any lying to the girl or any exploitation must be stamped out. If Mood have abused these girls in any way, then they must be shut down.
    This is just my opinion and I accept everyone will not agree with me.
    The Pen is mightier than the Sword.

    Unless of course your opponent actually has a Sword!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave44 View Post
    But any lying to the girl or any exploitation must be stamped out. If Mood have abused these girls in any way, then they must be shut down.

    This is just my opinion and I accept everyone will not agree with me.
    I hope nobody would disagree with the first two sentences quoted above.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    Ludwig - I am assuming that you have close contact with, and back up what Mood Pictures have been doing as being okay. I find that disturbing, but it doesn't surprise me from some of your past posts..
    Well, Whirls, let me put it like this: I find your frequent displays of self-righteousness pretty annoying myself. Especially in light of the fact that the reasoning and the factual accuracy of your posts is often lacking. I still remember vividly one discussion we had last year, where you quoted an entirely and obviously pseudo-scientific "psychology website" in support of your views (a site where, among other things, homosexuality was listed as a "sexual disorder").

    But let's not get into these old stories again. To answer your question: my own moral position has always been pretty straightforward. I have stated it many times on this forum. It can be summed up like this.

    As long as...

    1) All participants are adults (over 18, or in some jurisdictions over 21)
    2) All participants gave informed consent to what is about to happen, and
    3) No permanent damage is done

    ...I have no moral objections against whatever kinky play people want to engage in. I may not be into it myself, as a matter of personal taste, but I find nothing wrong with it morally.

    It was always my understanding that, regardless of the harsh videos they produced, Mood acted according to these principles - they certainly did at the shoot I visited one year ago. If, however, it turns out that the recent accusations are true, then Mood are clearly in the wrong, and they should be prosecuted for it.

    So much for my own moral position re: Mood and kinky play in general. You are free to disagree with it, of course, but there you have it in plain English. Again.

    As for you, I don't see any discernible moral argument at all in your posts. You frequently throw around subjective and emotion-laden terms like "nasty", "brutal", "disgusting" or "warped". But you never state, in clear terms, what type of kinky play is morally objectionable or unobjectionable in your view, and why, and where you draw the line.

    Instead, you simply argue:

    The evidence is there to be seen in the nasty material that they have produced.. Any jury will find them guilty after watching just small fraction of what they have made.. They are a brutal sadistic group that disgusts me to the core..
    In other words: because Mood made such nasty videos, they obviously must be guilty of the accusations made against them!

    That is prejudice, nothing more. It is not what a jury in a court of law would base their judgment on - at least not in the kind of modern, enlightened society where I would want to live.

    You seem to assume that what happens in front of the camera is identical to what happens behind the camera. This is naive. Obviously, it is possible to make a very severe, edgy spanking video and treat the models nicely and respectfully off-camera. I've seen it happening at the Mood shoot I attended, and I've seen it happening at Lupus Pictures, too - another Eastern European producer of "edgy" material.

    On the other hand, all the negative stories I've heard so far (from models like Adele Haze, Niki Flynn etc.), about producers who do NOT treat models respectfully, were about producers who make pretty tame-looking videos. I might add that the worst stories I've heard were about one producer in the UK - not in Eastern Europe.

    What interests me, is the type of people that search out the type of material that the so called 'pansy crowd' that you mention would shout about.. What sort of warped sense of pleasure do they (the supporters of mood pictures type of material) get out of it. I won't go as far as to say that this type of stuff goes some way to help those that see abusing people as being normality, and in turn it enables them to carry out such things in real life. But it does point in that direction IMO.
    The same kind of thinking here. You assume that, because you find this type of material sickening, everyone who enjoys it is probably sick (and a potentially dangerous individual). Again, this is just prejudice and naive thinking (it is also not supported by any psychological research into BDSM).

    I've been a kinky blogger and movie reviewer for years, and I have corresponded with literally dozens of people who liked the videos of Mood Pictures. One of them was a misogynist idiot: "Hey, Ludwig, congratulations about caning these f---ing bitches at Mood!" (Needless to say, that guy did not get a reply from me.) All the others I can remember, however, came across as bright, respectful, well-adjusted individuals. They clearly cared about the models, and they found reassurance in the fact that the models at the Mood shoot I attended were treated nicely and professionally.

    So, among some 50 correspondents (that is a conservative estimate, it was probably more), you have one single misogynist idiot. I'd say that you can probably walk into any pub in the UK and find 2% of such idiots among the people you talk to! I don't think that the Mood audience is any worse here than the average, non-spanko population.

    Regardless of whether or not the recent accusations against Mood turn out to be true, it's this uninformed prejudiced thinking of yours that is uncalled for, Whirls. I don't mind it much myself. I know that whatever negative stereotypes some people might have about me have nothing whatsoever to do with who I really am, and I've been in enough discussions like this one over the years to not care anymore. However, your prejudice is not just directed against me, it is directed against all viewers who like a particular kind of video - a whole group of people in our kinky subculture, a substantial group at that. This is just annoying. It is also self-contradictory, in a way, because the same kind of thinking could so easily be turned against whatever "nasty" kinks you might have - as long as someone considers them nasty, that is.

    I mean, seriously, where does it come from, this apparent need to judge others negatively without really knowing anything about them? I don't get it.

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    Well, Whirls, let me put it like this: I find your frequent displays of self-righteousness pretty annoying myself. Especially in light of the fact that the reasoning and the factual accuracy of your posts is often lacking. I still remember vividly one discussion we had last year, where you quoted an entirely and obviously pseudo-scientific "psychology website" in support of your views (a site where, among other things, homosexuality was listed as a "sexual disorder").

    But let's not get into these old stories again.
    Of course the above section is more about you trying to make me look like a person without any life experience or education that enables me to make reasoned judgements of people or situations. I haven't looked back to see what information or website that I put forward as to psychological disorders. I normally make references to DSM IV or ICD 10 .. In the case you mention I would have talked about ICD 10 F65 ICD-10 ( F60-F69 ) both of which are the 'Bibles' concerning mental health and disorders. Of course many people suffering from any of those disorders don't see that they have a disorder. They see themselves as normal. That has to be decided by a Psychiatrist or some mental health professional in many cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    To answer your question: my own moral position has always been pretty straightforward. I have stated it many times on this forum. It can be summed up like this.

    As long as...

    1) All participants are adults (over 18, or in some jurisdictions over 21)
    2) All participants gave informed consent to what is about to happen, and
    3) No permanent damage is done

    ...I have no moral objections against whatever kinky play people want to engage in. I may not be into it myself, as a matter of personal taste, but I find nothing wrong with it morally.
    Okay. That has sorted out where you stand. No problem - As we know. Giving consent doesn't make certain activites legal or acceptable in the eyes of the law or the public.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    On the other hand, all the negative stories I've heard so far (from models like Adele Haze, Niki Flynn etc.), about producers who do NOT treat models respectfully, were about producers who make pretty tame-looking videos. I might add that the worst stories I've heard were about one producer in the UK - not in Eastern Europe.
    None of that comes as a surprise.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    The same kind of thinking here. You assume that, because you find this type of material sickening, everyone who enjoys it is probably sick (and a potentially dangerous individual). Again, this is just prejudice and naive thinking (it is also not supported by any psychological research into BDSM).
    I have no doubt that some people that visit this site enjoy what they can see, and maybe they are avid collectors of material that some of us wouldn't go near. I do question your logic as to trying to make out that the people that go in for the heavy stuff are right in the head. Of course a few maybe. On the other hand like a lot of Peadophiles and sex offenders, they also think that there is nothing wrong with them even after they are caught.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ludwig View Post
    However, your prejudice is not just directed against me, it is directed against all viewers who like a particular kind of video - a whole group of people in our kinky subculture, a substantial group at that. This is just annoying. It is also self-contradictory, in a way, because the same kind of thinking could so easily be turned against whatever "nasty" kinks you might have - as long as someone considers them nasty, that is.

    I mean, seriously, where does it come from, this apparent need to judge others negatively without really knowing anything about them? I don't get it.
    I have covered a lot of that in my last paragraph. I am not the type of person that will stand by and put up with abusive people, or those that see abuse as being okay. There is a world of difference between that and play. I do have vanilla friends that see what I do as being rather odd and cannot understand it. Not that they know I do play. It is human nature to judge what is right or wrong, and some of the wrongs are covered by laws made on our behalf based on what we as individuals and society see.

    Whirls
    If freedom is outlawed, only outlaws will have freedom
    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    'I have no doubt that some people that visit this site enjoy what they can see, and maybe they are avid collectors of material that some of us wouldn't go near. I do question your logic as to trying to make out that the people that go in for the heavy stuff are right in the head. Of course a few maybe. On the other hand like a lot of Peadophiles and sex offenders, they also think that there is nothing wrong with them even after they are caught.'


    BDSMers are like Paedophiles and sex offenders (in not thinking what they do as wrong).

    Risky Bankers are like Paedophiles, they both don't think what they do is wrong.

    People who park on yellow lines are like Paedophiles, they both don't think what they do is wrong.


    People who 'play' are not wrong in the head.
    Last edited by joeking_bs; 17-02-2010 at 14:01. Reason: spankmodels.com your place for all spanking
    Do you want to see some spanking clips? click my profile

  34. #34
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    The skills of intellectual debate appear to have been lost, ahem.

    An observation.......

    As the poster is a purveyor promoting CP media, some of the posters audience may well also have more general BDSM interests so they are being exceedingly disrespectful and ridiculing their own clients and potential clients?

    The irony of one purveyor of Internet Porn to ridicule another has comedy value, to ridicule ones clients, priceless



    Quote Originally Posted by joeking_bs View Post

    BDSMers are like Paedophiles and sex offenders (in not thinking what they do as wrong).

    People who 'play' are not wrong in the head.

  35. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Allen View Post
    The skills of intellectual debate appear to have been lost, ahem.
    An observation.......
    As the poster is a purveyor promoting CP media, some of the posters audience may well also have more general BDSM interests so they are being exceedingly disrespectful and ridiculing their own clients and potential clients?
    The irony of one purveyor of Internet Porn to ridicule another has comedy value, to ridicule ones clients, priceless
    You appear to have misunderstood my post.

    I was trying to exam the association that another poster made to paedophiles and BDSMers.

    The ridicule was intended for the association.
    Do you want to see some spanking clips? click my profile

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    Reference to post #33 by Joeking

    I see you are back to your old tricks of pushing sites that you have an interest in Joeking. I congratulate you at your sneaky attempt of trying to get it in under the radar, as a reason for editing your post.. Naughty boy!

    Whirls
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  37. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    Of course the above section is more about you trying to make me look like a person without any life experience or education that enables me to make reasoned judgements of people or situations. I haven't looked back to see what information or website that I put forward as to psychological disorders. I normally make references to DSM IV or ICD 10 .. In the case you mention I would have talked about ICD 10 F65 ICD-10 ( F60-F69 ) both of which are the 'Bibles' concerning mental health and disorders.
    Well, you didn't quote from the DSM IV or ICD 10 in the discussion I am referring to. You linked to, and quoted from, an entirely pseudo-scientific website which lists, among other things, homosexuality as a sexual disorder. It offers to "cure" homosexuality, it includes in its references several people who were Nazi war criminals, and it supports lobotomies.

    I wouldn't go as far as saying that the episode proves that you are unable to make reasoned judgements of people or situations, ever. It does show, however, that while there are times when you mention proper, scientific sources like the DSM, there are other times when you are incredibly sloppy with your sources.

    Half-knowledge can be even more dangerous than ignorance.

    Of course many people suffering from any of those disorders don't see that they have a disorder. They see themselves as normal. That has to be decided by a Psychiatrist or some mental health professional in many cases.
    Indeed. To my knowledge (correct me if I am wrong), you are not a mental health professional. Neither am I. The difference between us is that I don't make wild guesses, publicly questioning the mental health of a substantial part of the kinky subculture, as you frequently do.

    Okay. That has sorted out where you stand. No problem - As we know. Giving consent doesn't make certain activites legal or acceptable in the eyes of the law or the public.
    Consent isn't the only important part. Point number 3) in my moral position, the condition that no permanent damage is inflicted, is equally important.

    As for the law, that differs from country to country. In Germany, where I live, you can consent to an injury as long as that injury does not violate the so-called "good mores" ("die guten Sitten"). Of course, what violates or doesn't violate "good mores" is a matter of some legal dispute. However, it seems quite clear from past court rulings on the matter that BDSM activities are not usually considered to violate the good mores, and that one would have to inflict very severe, even life-threatening injuries to run afoul of the law. The is not the case with a caning or whipping, not even the harsh ones done by Mood Pictures.

    The law in other countries is more restrictive. I understand that it is more restrictive in the UK, and that this is a source for considerable frustration among many members of the UK spanking scene. As for Hungary, I don't know about the exact wording of the law there. I would assume that there is a substantial grey area when it comes to consent to injury. I am currently investigating this for my blog reports about the Mood affair.

    As for what "the eyes of the public" see as acceptable at any given time, well... Homosexuality was illegal in Britain until 1967. Was that a good thing? I don't think so. We have to question the majority sentiments of the society we live in, using our own capabilities for reasoning and our own life experiences.

    I have no doubt that some people that visit this site enjoy what they can see, and maybe they are avid collectors of material that some of us wouldn't go near. I do question your logic as to trying to make out that the people that go in for the heavy stuff are right in the head. Of course a few maybe. On the other hand like a lot of Peadophiles and sex offenders, they also think that there is nothing wrong with them even after they are caught.
    Equating sadomasochism with pedophilia is nonsense, and as someone who claims to be familiar with the DSM-IV, you should know this. Pedophilia is always considered a psychological disorder, and with very good reason. Sadomasochism, on the other hand, is not usually considered a disorder - only in cases when someone has acted out sadomasochistic urges with a non-consenting person, and in cases where "the fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors... cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning" (I am quoting from the DSM-IV, 1994).

    Well, that is not the case with me (actually, the biggest distress I suffer because of me being kinky is in silly discussions like this!). Neither is it the case, in my view, with the average Mood Pictures viewer. Based on my correspondence with dozens of them, I would say that the vast majority are very much "right in the head". Not just "a few maybe".

    I am not the type of person that will stand by and put up with abusive people, or those that see abuse as being okay. There is a world of difference between that and play.
    Fine. D'accord! I don't condone abuse, either, and I certainly do not see it as being okay.

    Of couse, the question is, what do we define as "abuse"? In my view, the consent of the people involved (or the lack of consent) is the key. Is a hard caning that leaves welts "abusive" when it happens between consenting adults and no permanent damage is done? In my view, it isn't. I think it is very difficult to make a valid argument that it is abuse (unless you want to claim that all BDSM activities are, somehow, inherently abusive).

    On the other hand, if you force someone at gunpoint to walk into a room, and if you lock them in that room against their will, is that abuse? Of course it is - even though there isn't even any physical pain or injury involved. Clearly, then, the consent is the key.

    If the accusations concerning the recent Mood Pictures shoot turn out to be true, then they committed abuse and I will condemn them for it - as will the vast majority of their former fans.

    We will see. In any case, I stand by my point that your claim that kinky people who like Mood-type material are "abusive people" or "see abuse as being okay" is plain wrong. It is based on prejudice and your own dislike for the videos, not on any empirical evidence or personal experience with the people you are talking about.

    No, we must not stand by and put up with abuse. We must also make sure, however, that we judge others only when the facts are in, and that we do not judge them based on prejudice or negative stereotypes.
    Last edited by Ludwig; 17-02-2010 at 18:32.

  38. #38
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    Of course I don't go along with everything you say Ludwig. I can say that reading your posts combined with some of my posts. There is enough information for people to make up their own minds on the subject matter.

    Whirls
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    Be who you are and say how you feel. Because those who matter don't mind, and those who mind don't matter

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    Quote Originally Posted by joeking_bs View Post
    .......

    BDSMers are like Paedophiles and sex offenders (in not thinking what they do as wrong)......

    .

    oh, now that DID make me laugh.

    Unlike the rest of this thread which quite rightly and interestingly debates such an important and controvertial subject matter.
    Dress it up how you like, but bollox will always be bollox.
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    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbour. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover." Twain



  40. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whirly View Post
    Of course I don't go along with everything you say Ludwig. I can say that reading your posts combined with some of my posts. There is enough information for people to make up their own minds on the subject matter.
    Whirls
    Yes, there sure is enough information. Now that I have crushed the discussion with my verbosity, let's ignore each other in peace! *laughs*

    As I said earlier, I don't really have the time or the energy for another long discussion, anyway. I made the two long posts above so that people who don't know me yet can get a clearer idea of what my views are. It wasn't personal, Whirls (you seem to like cats, as I do, so I suppose you're alright - even though we disagree about many things re: kink).

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