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  1. #1
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    The perfect metaphor(s) for Brexit

    I'm going to cancel Netflix and negotiate with each film producer separately, to get the best deal for me and my family


    Or set up a new Netflix with no films, no tv shows but the knowledge that I'm in control...
    (tweets from the today's Independent)

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    You should put the saving per week you make on the side of a bus. Of course, the saving is not what you actually paid but grossed up for any loyalty discount you may have received. Also, important to ignore any costs resulting from negotiating these separate deals. Do this and you will go far.

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    I think it is an excellent metaphor. Of course all the big producers will be beating their way to your door as one chap sitting in his bedroom on his iPad you will be their most important sales target over and above of those big customers they have too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    I'm going to cancel Netflix and negotiate with each film producer separately, to get the best deal for me and my family
    But that's what businesses do. Every business deal has to be individually negotiated whether you have tariff free access to a market or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    Or set up a new Netflix with no films, no tv shows
    The UK will not have to set up new businesses with no products. It might have escaped your notice but the UK is the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    but the knowledge that I'm in control...
    (tweets from the today's Independent)
    Ah, tweets from the Independent, that explains everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy View Post
    I think it is an excellent metaphor. Of course all the big producers will be beating their way to your door as one chap sitting in his bedroom on his iPad you will be their most important sales target over and above of those big customers they have too.
    Big businesses rarely come up with great ideas. Usually a great idea comes to an individual who then either runs with the idea themselves or finds a business to help them realise their idea.

    You didn't think the CEO of Netflix came up with all those TV & film scripts himself did you?

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    Oh BA. You sauve charmer and erudite fellow.

    Why don't you phone up Microsoft and ask for a special discount as you are an angry wasp sock puppet so you don't want to pay the same for your use of their software on your laptop. See what they say.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curioserto View Post
    You should put the saving per week you make on the side of a bus. Of course, the saving is not what you actually paid but grossed up for any loyalty discount you may have received. Also, important to ignore any costs resulting from negotiating these separate deals. Do this and you will go far.
    I agree putting a figure on the savings the government will make by leaving the EU is plain stupid until the dust settles. Strange though that the people now jumping up and down about Boris and his £350m a week figure have been completely silent while the EU has dreamt up ever more fanciful sums for the Brexit bill. I wonder why they would do that? You don't think they could be biased instead of objective do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy View Post
    Oh BA. You sauce charmer and erudite fellow.

    Why don't you phone up Microsoft and ask for a special discount as you are an angry wasp sock puppet so you don't want to pay the same for your use of their software on your laptop. See what they say.
    But microsoft already gave me a huge discount on Office. I paid £9.95 last October.

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    So. What big idea has Bojo had beyond wanting to try his arm at becoming pm this autumn by screwing over the Maybot?

    QUOTE=BadAttitude;1244567]Big businesses rarely come up with great ideas. Usually a great idea comes to an individual who then either runs with the idea themselves or finds a business to help them realise their idea.

    You didn't think the CEO of Netflix came up with all those TV & film scripts himself did you?[/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy View Post
    So. What big idea has Bojo had beyond wanting to try his arm at becoming pm this autumn by screwing over the Maybot?
    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    Big businesses rarely come up with great ideas. Usually a great idea comes to an individual who then either runs with the idea themselves or finds a business to help them realise their idea.

    You didn't think the CEO of Netflix came up with all those TV & film scripts himself did you?

    As per usual you have rather lazily fallen for the script the media want you to believe, tension and drama within the cabinet. Oh the drama, oh the clickbait. Boris/clickbait, clickbait/Boris

    Could it possibly be Theresa May and David Davis have a plan and that Boris is playing the bad cop to good cop Theresa May will play in her speech in Florence later this week?

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    I very much doubt it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    I agree putting a figure on the savings the government will make by leaving the EU is plain stupid until the dust settles. Strange though that the people now jumping up and down about Boris and his £350m a week figure have been completely silent while the EU has dreamt up ever more fanciful sums for the Brexit bill. I wonder why they would do that? You don't think they could be biased instead of objective do you?
    I would expect the opening negotiating positions to be somewhat fanciful. It is equally fanciful to start with an opening position of zero. There is an objective basis to the EU negotiating position but, basically they want us to pay our share of the liabilities but not net off the assets. The government are now throwing the 30 billion figure around so must think that is close to the answer which makes negotiating sense as EU were throwing 60 billion around for quite a while. There were some suggestions of 100 billion at one stage but was probably designed to make 60 billion sound reasonable. I never had to do such big negotiations but I always included some headroom that would be negotiated out. Both biased in that I needed to obtain the best result for my side and objective in that arguments need to be rational.

    If it was me I would hide some of the settlement as indirect transition arrangement costs to reduce the headline figure. Another trick is to separate out revenue from capital and confuse everyone by talking about several settlements rather than one. In any case, the answer is political not economic or financial. It was ever thus and why the euro happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curioserto View Post
    I would expect the opening negotiating positions to be somewhat fanciful. It is equally fanciful to start with an opening position of zero.
    I've never been bored enough to read article 50 but those who have say it makes no mention of settling any liabilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by curioserto View Post
    In any case, the answer is political not economic or financial. It was ever thus and why the euro happened.
    I agree entirely which is why I expect the usual suspects from the European parliament to be furious with whatever may says in Florence later this week. They don't want a deal with the UK they just want to try and make an example of the us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    I've never been bored enough to read article 50 but those who have say it makes no mention of settling any liabilities.
    1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

    3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

    4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

    A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

    5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.


    The need to settle liabilities in not explicit but a need to negotiate is

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    I agree entirely which is why I expect the usual suspects from the European parliament to be furious with whatever may says in Florence later this week. They don't want a deal with the UK they just want to try and make an example of the us.
    You do complain about others just churning out media fodder but I think you may be subject to the same tendencies. The media likes to focus on personalities to give colour but this is not about that. The rhetoric has been racheted up on both sides but everyone will be aware of the potential damage to all economies if trade suffers. As ever, we are not privy to the key conversations and, given the likes of Gove leaking like a sieve, I am sure the inner circle of those in the know is very small. The civil servant shift today is part of tightening the communication lines. Whatever happens, both sides will claim victory. The truth will be obscured by whatever happens in the world economy and academics will write the definitive analysis in about 10 years when the dust has settled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by curioserto View Post
    You do complain about others just churning out media fodder but I think you may be subject to the same tendencies. The media likes to focus on personalities to give colour but this is not about that.
    I don't pay much attention to what is written in the media but I do pay attention to what comes out of peoples' mouths. From their utterances it's crystal clear Juncker and Verhofstadt want to punish the UK for having the temerity to leave the EU.

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    I really wish I was an equity partner in the form that acts for the government in the years of litigation in The all over the place about the interpretation of this

    kerr ching. Buy the yacht and an island in the caribbean. Which is why I imagine we will do a sensible deal. If we do indeed leave which I still think we won't my current ten quid is on a Labour government by her end of February with a staying in the single market view which then evolves just to staying.

    There was a really interesting article in the Guardian over the weekend talking about how JC is heavily supported by middle class men who are in their fifties and sixties. In addition to the young and the hard left etc. Thoughtful stuff.

    QUOTE=curioserto;1244599]1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.

    2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union. That agreement shall be negotiated in accordance with Article 218(3) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. It shall be concluded on behalf of the Union by the Council, acting by a qualified majority, after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

    3. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

    4. For the purposes of paragraphs 2 and 3, the member of the European Council or of the Council representing the withdrawing Member State shall not participate in the discussions of the European Council or Council or in decisions concerning it.

    A qualified majority shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(b) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

    5. If a State which has withdrawn from the Union asks to rejoin, its request shall be subject to the procedure referred to in Article 49.


    The need to settle liabilities in not explicit but a need to negotiate is
    [/QUOTE]

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    I don't pay much attention to what is written in the media but I do pay attention to what comes out of peoples' mouths. From their utterances it's crystal clear Juncker and Verhofstadt want to punish the UK for having the temerity to leave the EU.

    Yes but they represent the EU commissioners and the european parliament - both are potentially going to be sidelined in the decision making so they shout loudest. Yes, the parliament is a potential aggravation factor but certain leaders of certain countries still pull the strings. The parliament will pass a resolution to advise the chief negotiator of their view but managing that is about a certain amount of damage limitation.

    It is like trying to work out who makes the decisions here. It is not May or Johnson or Davis. That is not how the Tory party works and certainly not how government works. And of course, we then add the layer of civil service and it is no wonder "yes prime minister" was so popular - because it is true. It is important to determine dogs and tail wagging on each side if one is going to enjoy the next year.

    Burgundy is right though that there will be rich pickings for the lawyers sorting out the detail.

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    I certainly agree that how the conservatives work is very much below the scene. The people who pull the levers there are not on the surface really.

    I hope Labour will remain sensible in terms of not being taken over by the extreme left. If they could morph into a more open tent left to moderate party with everyone given a fair shout they could sweep it I think next time which would well now be within months.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    I'm going to cancel Netflix and negotiate with each film producer separately, to get the best deal for me and my family


    Or set up a new Netflix with no films, no tv shows but the knowledge that I'm in control...
    (tweets from the today's Independent)
    It may not be a perfect metaphor but it is pretty close.
    Alice

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    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    It may not be a perfect metaphor but it is pretty close.
    Which bit do you think was close?

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    the UK is the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world
    .
    Well, ‘Up to a point, Lord Copper’.

    It depends on how the Gross National Product (GDP) is measured. Different methods of calculation lead to different sized GDP and hence to different positions in any league table. There are three different methods of calculating the GDPs of different countries.

    Firstly, the official exchange rate. This measurement converts the currencies of different countries to one common or standard currency

    Secondly, Purchasing Power Parity (PPP). This involves calculating what one item in one country would cost if it were sold in the USA. One popular expression of this is the ‘Big Mac’ index.

    Using this method the UK in 2016 was ranked 10th largest economy in the world with a GDP of $2,786,000,000,000
    Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...01rank.html#uk

    Thirdly, GDP per capita. This total economic output divided by the total population. Expressed in PPP

    Using this method the UK in 2016 was ranked 38th largest economy in the world with a GDP per capita of £42, 500
    Source: https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat.../2004rank.html

    The CIA World Fact Book is a reference book produced by the Central Intelligence Agency and is generally regard as ‘authoritative’. From it we may see the following

    The world’s largest economy in 2016 was China ($21.3 trillion economic output. The EU, which the stupid or ill-informed voted to leave, was second ($21.3 trillion A combined total of 40% of the world’s output! ), Third, the USA ($18.6 trillion)Germany was rated sixth and was the highest performing economy in the EU (just under $4 trillion)

    This week Mrs may is visiting the Canada to begin the negotiations for a post-Brexit trade dead. The UK, through membership of the EU, is already a member of the Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement (CETA). This took seven years to negotiate. Leaving the EU means leaving CETA. A less powerful UK is not going to get the same deal. Mr Trudeau says CETA would form the basis of a deal with the UK. In other word, Canada is going to remove all the bits of the Agreement that are to it’s disadvantage. Each day it become more obvious how wrong the decision to leave the EU is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    Which bit do you think was close?
    If I thought you actually wanted an answer instead of an excuse to start more ill feelings, I might have considered your question.
    Alice

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    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    If I thought you actually wanted an answer instead of an excuse to start more ill feelings, I might have considered your question.
    You do seem to struggle to answer the simplest of questions about your views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    You do seem to struggle to answer the simplest of questions about your views.
    I replied to mortinuk's OP. If you can't see past your own bias to understand how the metaphor fits, I am not going to waste my time attempting to explain it to you. As for your 'questions' I am under no obligation to answer them. You can ask what you like, the threads are open, but you have no 'right' to be answered. If you don't like it, or me, don't engage with me.
    Alice

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    A Snowflake having a meltdown

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    Snowflake as an insult is typically used by those on the political right to insult those on the political left. Must be why I can't be bothered to answer tendentious questions when it is just an excuse to insult.
    Alice

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    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    Snowflake as an insult is typically used by those on the political right to insult those on the political left. Must be why I can't be bothered to answer tendentious questions when it is just an excuse to insult.
    Not quite. From wikipedia;

    Generation Snowflake, or Snowflake Generation, is a neologistic term used to characterize the young adults of the 2010s as being more prone to taking offence and less resilient than previous generations, or as being too emotionally vulnerable to cope with views that challenge their own.

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    Well done.
    Quote Originally Posted by J J Dick View Post

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    Snowflake is a perjorative term of abuse used by the alt right who might one day turn into the modern equivalents of the brown shirts of the 1930s and to be honest has no place in what should be an open and understanding forum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy View Post
    Snowflake is a perjorative term of abuse used by the alt right who might one day turn into the modern equivalents of the brown shirts of the 1930s and to be honest has no place in what should be an open and understanding forum.
    Well said.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whos-th...tical-insults/

    Wikipedia, such an unimpeachable source of information. Of course, things have moved on and I foolishly read current articles from other sources. Still those who want to form their world view from Wikipedia are entitled to do so. I shall stick with my own.
    Alice

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    I share the same understanding as Alice-in-God's Own and Burgundy. This means that they must be right!

    Incidentally, Burgundy, I'm with you as I think the chances are that the UK will not leave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    Well said.

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/whos-th...tical-insults/

    Wikipedia, such an unimpeachable source of information. Of course, things have moved on and I foolishly read current articles from other sources. Still those who want to form their world view from Wikipedia are entitled to do so. I shall stick with my own.

    You'll note the Wiki explanation does not mention left or right wing politics. Being termed a snowflake just means you are overly sensitive to things that challenge your beliefs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy View Post
    Snowflake is a perjorative term of abuse used by the alt right who might one day turn into the modern equivalents of the brown shirts of the 1930s and to be honest has no place in what should be an open and understanding forum.
    Is hysterical tosspot a pejorative term?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    Is hysterical tosspot a pejorative term?

    I think it probably is...the next time someone calls you it, I'd chin them if I were you.

    Always assuming you're up to it and not some little wrung out rat forum troll.

    As a general rule, if you attract further abuse of which you require an explanation, I'd go with google for information rather than a public forum, where lets face it, people reading your post are probably laughing behind their hands at your naiveté.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    A Snowflake having a meltdown
    Beware. Every snowstorm and avalanche is made up of snowflakes.
    Democracy is for life; not just for a single referendum!

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    Mrs May asked the electorate for an increased majority and failed to get it

    Mrs May asked the electorate for a mandate for a hard ‘brexit’ and didn’t get it

    The electorate rejected Mrs May’s presidential electioneering and calls for ‘strong and stable government’

    Despite all this the Tories changed the rules, that Committees should reflect the composition of the Commons, to ensure that they, thanks to the votes of the party supported by terrorists, have a majority on the committees that scrutinise proposed legislation

    In reality little, if anything, has changed. We ear much of the will of the people when it refers to the 37% of the electorate who voted to leave but little when used in other contexts. It’s the far right f the Tory party who are determining the political agenda not what is right for the country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J J Dick View Post
    I paused before signing as I would not do it just as a spoiling tactic. However, I am so fed up with the current rhetoric that there is nothing to lose. I also think Vince Gable shows a lot of integrity although I know he has been maligned by some on here in a previous thread. Who hasn't been maligned by one or two on here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    Is hysterical tosspot a pejorative term?
    Why else would a person capable of reasoned argument and debate use it? You can probably find the answer on your usual source of information, wikipedia. I would read what J J Dick, mortinuk, Burgundy and Magnum said carefully. You might learn something. Magnum described you posts as ad hominem on another thread. I think he pretty much nailed it right there.
    Alice

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