Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 45678 LastLast
Results 201 to 240 of 311
  1. #201
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    No where near you
    Posts
    2,260
    Time Online
    113 d 5 h 14 m
    This appears to be a text message poll. You send a text back saying a or b

    would it not be better to ask

    do you think the UK should stay in the Customs Union post Brexit yes or no?

    and then send another one saying do you know what the Customs Union really is? Yes or no?

  2. #202
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Sussex
    Posts
    1
    Time Online
    13 d 2 h N/A
    A better metaphor might be, do you want to subscribe to Netflix for life, even if it were going bust, and your subscription were twice that of other subscribers, or do you want the choice to subscribe to netflix, amazon prime, sky etc...

  3. #203
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    No where near you
    Posts
    2,260
    Time Online
    113 d 5 h 14 m
    But that falls apart if the alternatives to netflix are as they are here more expensive and not as good as netflicks. Unless of course you like chlorinated chicken.

  4. #204
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    1,984
    Time Online
    7 d 14 h 50 m
    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    {cut} here is a fairly dispassionate view of the economic arguments surrounding Brexit{cut}
    Someone, I am sure you can guess who, posted that a poll was a fact. Well it might be a fact that there was a poll but a poll, in this case a methodologically flawed poll, is nothing but a collection of opinions. The clue is in the title, opinion poll. I posted the opinions of some experts as evaluated by others, mainly the Financial Times in this case. I made it clear though that they were views, I left it to others to decide what was fact. After every horrific murder you can get a poll saying that hanging should be reintroduced. That it has not been is because no government has acted on such polls, to do so would be an abrogation of the role of parliament. Ordinary people do not always do what is sensible, desirable or even sane. Ordinary people get the opportunity to express their views in general elections and to be represented through those MP's so elected. I would not like to live in a society were every issue was decided by knee-jerk reactions and polls of dubious provenance. There is a reason for parliamentary debate and a considered response to events is generally far safer than simply following the latest poll, all of which can be manipulated to get the result the poll is briefed to get. I think I prefer the system we have. The whole house of cards that is falling on the Peoples of the UK is the result of an ill considered advisory poll.
    Alice

  5. #205
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    Someone, I am sure you can guess who, posted that a poll was a fact. Well it might be a fact that there was a poll but a poll, in this case a methodologically flawed poll, is nothing but a collection of opinions. The clue is in the title, opinion poll. I posted the opinions of some experts as evaluated by others, mainly the Financial Times in this case. I made it clear though that they were views, I left it to others to decide what was fact. After every horrific murder you can get a poll saying that hanging should be reintroduced. That it has not been is because no government has acted on such polls, to do so would be an abrogation of the role of parliament. Ordinary people do not always do what is sensible, desirable or even sane. Ordinary people get the opportunity to express their views in general elections and to be represented through those MP's so elected. I would not like to live in a society were every issue was decided by knee-jerk reactions and polls of dubious provenance. There is a reason for parliamentary debate and a considered response to events is generally far safer than simply following the latest poll, all of which can be manipulated to get the result the poll is briefed to get. I think I prefer the system we have. The whole house of cards that is falling on the Peoples of the UK is the result of an ill considered advisory poll.
    Fact no.1 - there was a poll carried out by Sky News.

    Fact no.2 - the result was 76% would rather no Brexit deal than a bad Brexit deal.

    Fact no.3 - ordinary people not only get the opportunity to express their views in general elections but also in referendums.

    Fact no.4 - in the referendum on EU membership the majority voted to leave.

    You should have a go at including some facts in your posts.

  6. #206
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Birkby
    Posts
    181
    Time Online
    5 d 7 h 20 m
    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    an ill considered advisory poll.
    For what it's worth, the leaflet delivered to households concluded with "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide". It's a while ago now but I can't recall anyone prior to the vote suggesting that it was advisory.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ion-for-the-uk

  7. #207
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    150
    Time Online
    3 d 16 h 36 m

  8. #208
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    To be fair Alice is giving us the benefit of her opinions on Brexit all the way from Australia and I don't believe the government delivered leaflets all the way out there.

  9. #209
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by J J Dick View Post
    Is is a fact that the Prime Minister at the time, David Cameron, said he would implement the result should we vote to leave. Absolutely no ambiguity about that.

    Incidentally can you imagine the fuss if our friends north of the border had voted for independence and Cameron had ripped up the result and said in his opinion they should remain part of the UK and remain they would?

  10. #210
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    150
    Time Online
    3 d 16 h 36 m
    Fact no.1 - there was a poll carried of his friends and family by J J Dick today - this is just as valid as Sky viewers. In fact my parents once were Sky Viewers. Fact.

    Fact no.2 - the result was 100% would rather no Brexit. But I didn't ask my UKIP friend BA because his views might have skewed the result I wanted. Fact.

    Fact no.3 - ordinary people not only get the opportunity to express their views in general elections but also in referenda. There is, however no compulsion for government to act on these expressed views. Fact.

    Fact no.4 - in the referendum on EU membership a minority of the people eligible to vote in the uk voted leave. So a substantial majority of the UK population have not expressed a desire to leave. Fact.

    You should have a go at including some facts in your posts.

  11. #211
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    150
    Time Online
    3 d 16 h 36 m
    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    Is is a fact that the Prime Minister at the time, David Cameron, said he would implement the result should we vote to leave.
    Ran off, didn't he? So how was that implementing it?

  12. #212
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    1,984
    Time Online
    7 d 14 h 50 m
    Quote Originally Posted by Masterchef View Post
    For what it's worth, the leaflet delivered to households concluded with "This is your decision. The government will implement what you decide". It's a while ago now but I can't recall anyone prior to the vote suggesting that it was advisory.

    https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ion-for-the-uk
    The High Court decided it was and that forced the parliamentary debate. The Referendum Act says it was advisory. The fact is people were misled.

    Oh and for our 'ordinary people' supporter. Being in Australia is no debarment to being informed.

    http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-05-0...rendum/7390898
    Last edited by alice-in-oz; 13-10-2017 at 15:06.
    Alice

  13. #213
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    150
    Time Online
    3 d 16 h 36 m
    Anyway enough trollpandering...no more from me.

  14. #214
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    1,984
    Time Online
    7 d 14 h 50 m
    Quote Originally Posted by J J Dick View Post
    Anyway enough trollpandering...no more from me.

    I think I shall join you. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    Alice

  15. #215
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    The High Court decided it was and that forced the parliamentary debate. The Referendum Act says it was advisory. The fact is people were misled.
    You haven't quite got the hang of what a fact actually is have you! A fact is something which is true.

    How could anyone be misled with the Prime Minister himself stating on numerous occasions that he would implement the result. We even had George Osborne threatening us with an emergency budget should the result be leave. No one but no one could have been in any doubt that a vote to leave would be implemented.

    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    Oh and for our 'ordinary people' lover. Being in Australia is no debarment to being informed.
    I said the government didn't deliver leaflets in Australia, was I wrong?

  16. #216
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by J J Dick View Post
    Fact no.1 - there was a poll carried of his friends and family by J J Dick today - this is just as valid as Sky viewers. In fact my parents once were Sky Viewers. Fact.

    Fact no.2 - the result was 100% would rather no Brexit. But I didn't ask my UKIP friend BA because his views might have skewed the result I wanted. Fact.

    Fact no.3 - ordinary people not only get the opportunity to express their views in general elections but also in referenda. There is, however no compulsion for government to act on these expressed views. Fact.

    Fact no.4 - in the referendum on EU membership a minority of the people eligible to vote in the uk voted leave. So a substantial majority of the UK population have not expressed a desire to leave. Fact.

    You should have a go at including some facts in your posts.
    Imitation is the sincererest form of flattery.

  17. #217
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by alice-in-oz View Post
    I think I shall join you. There are none so blind as those who will not see.
    You and The Dick always flounce off when your arguments fall apart.

  18. #218
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    4,606
    Time Online
    9 d 19 h 47 m
    A fact is something which is true.
    Well, yet again you are wrong. The issue is not as simple as you may suppose. The moral philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre in‘ After Virtue’ offers reasons why there are no such things as ‘facts’

    The following is considerably more accessible and understandable on the issue of whether there are facts or not
    http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-t...thing-as-facts

  19. #219
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South East England
    Posts
    105
    Time Online
    1 d 1 h 46 m
    Your link has failed to prove that "A fact is something which is true." is wrong.
    Following... You are not in a position to state " Well, yet again you are wrong".
    As you say the issue is not as simple as you may suppose.
    PhilX

  20. #220
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    Well, yet again you are wrong. The issue is not as simple as you may suppose. The moral philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre in After Virtue offers reasons why there are no such things as facts

    The following is considerably more accessible and understandable on the issue of whether there are facts or not
    http://www.debate.org/opinions/are-t...thing-as-facts

  21. #221
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    150
    Time Online
    3 d 16 h 36 m

  22. #222
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    No where near you
    Posts
    2,260
    Time Online
    113 d 5 h 14 m
    I think we all now know it won’t happen unless of course the alt right get out of control in a nasty spat. There will before or after 2019 be another Referendum and back in we will go. Having wasted too much time and energy.

  23. #223
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    1,984
    Time Online
    7 d 14 h 50 m

    I suppose those 'ordinary people' don't count as much as the sky ones.
    Alice

  24. #224
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by Burgundy View Post
    I think we all now know it wont happen unless of course the alt right get out of control in a nasty spat. There will before or after 2019 be another Referendum and back in we will go. Having wasted too much time and energy.
    You and your alt right. You're like a schoolboy who has learnt a new word.

  25. #225
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    After the torrent of negative news about Brexit a little wavering is only to be expected.

  26. #226
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    4,606
    Time Online
    9 d 19 h 47 m
    ow_that_hurt
    Your link has failed to prove that "A fact is something which is true." is wrong.
    Well, for you to say that suggests that either you have not read the link or you don’t understand the points made.

    Water boils at 100 C. A true fact? Or is there something else you need to know?

  27. #227
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    ow_that_hurt


    Well, for you to say that suggests that either you have not read the link or you dont understand the points made.

    Water boils at 100 C. A true fact? Or is there something else you need to know?
    Pure water boils at 100C at 1 atmosphere of pressure.

  28. #228
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    4,606
    Time Online
    9 d 19 h 47 m
    A fact is something that it true
    Well is my ‘fact’ about the temperature that water boils at a specific temperature 'true' or not. You’ve added further information about pressure. This suggests that information was missing from my statement. So is the ‘fact’ about the temperature that water boils at ‘true’, ‘partly true’ or ‘false’?

  29. #229
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    Well is my ‘fact’ about the temperature that water boils at a specific temperature 'true' or not. You’ve added further information about pressure. This suggests that information was missing from my statement. So is the ‘fact’ about the temperature that water boils at ‘true’, ‘partly true’ or ‘false’?
    It is a fact that water can boil at 100C. Does it always boil at 100C, no.

  30. #230
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    4,606
    Time Online
    9 d 19 h 47 m
    So the statement that ‘water boils at 100 C’ is not ‘true’ because it may boil at that temperature under specific circumstances but not under all circumstances So, it follows that the statement that a ‘fact’ is something that is true is in fact false

  31. #231
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge
    Posts
    5,811
    Time Online
    26 d 2 h 31 m
    I disagree in so far as it is self evident that a fact can be true ... however had it been stated that "a fact is something that is always true " then that would have been a false statement
    Farewell Boleyn & Good-riddance Payet


  32. #232
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Surrey
    Posts
    580
    Time Online
    7 d 16 h 45 m
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Tan View Post
    I disagree in so far as it is self evident that a fact can be true ... however had it been stated that "a fact is something that is always true " then that would have been a false statement
    A fact is something which is always true. That's why I qualified the water boils at 100C by saying... Pure water boils at 100C at 1 atmosphere of pressure.

  33. #233
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    1,984
    Time Online
    7 d 14 h 50 m
    What is a fact? Really it is a moveable feast and depends on various interpretations
    As a noun:

    1. An event or thing known to have happened or existed
    2. A truth verifiable from experience or observation
    3. A piece of information
    Collins English Dictionary HarperCollins Publishers

    In Law:

    Fact - an event, occurrence or state of affairs known to have happened; to be distinguished from opinion or law. Facts can however be found proven in legal proceedings where they may or may not have actually happened. Facts may also be inferred from other facts.
    Collins Dictionary of Law W.J. Stewart, 2006

    There are many other definitions too. In general they all follow the above. In philosophy, facts are defined in a different way. All that I can say is a fact is what your particular definition happens to be in either common usage, law, science, philosophy or other discipline.
    Alice

  34. #234
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Wales
    Posts
    150
    Time Online
    3 d 16 h 36 m
    Mr Pie hits the bullseye again...

  35. #235
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    North West
    Posts
    4,606
    Time Online
    9 d 19 h 47 m
    It is a fact that water can boil at 100C. Does it always boil at 100C, no
    .

    So there is more truth in this ‘fact’ than in the fact that ‘Water boils at 100 C. This ‘fact remains false because it doesn’t cover all the situations, such as altitude, where water may boil at a different temperature

    Dr Tan said:
    I disagree in so far as it is self evident that a fact can be true
    A fact can also be false but believed to be true. For instance, the moon is made of cheese; the earth is flat; the sun revolves around the earth. The last ‘fact; was Catholic dogma at one time and had to be believed. To dissent was heresy.

    There are also, if I remember correctly, objective and subjective facts

  36. #236
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Cambridge
    Posts
    5,811
    Time Online
    26 d 2 h 31 m
    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    .
    A fact can also be false but believed to be true. For instance, the moon is made of cheese; the earth is flat; the sun revolves around the earth. The last fact; was Catholic dogma at one time and had to be believed. To dissent was heresy.
    a very disappointing reply Mort,

    to selectively edit my post in that way is a technique normally used by the intellectually frail , i thought you would have been able to do better than that?
    Farewell Boleyn & Good-riddance Payet


  37. #237
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Gateshead
    Posts
    261
    Time Online
    13 d 19 h 45 m
    What a fa(c)tuous thread this is becoming.

    "If you wish to converse with me", said Voltaire, "define your terms".

    "When words lose their meaning, people lose their liberty", often attributed to Confucius.

    Btw. I asked my son, who is well versed in these matters, whether facts exist. He rolled his eyes and replied. " of course they don't but where does that get you?"

  38. #238
    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    Western Australia
    Posts
    1,984
    Time Online
    7 d 14 h 50 m
    I think Voltaire had a point.
    Alice

  39. #239
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South East England
    Posts
    105
    Time Online
    1 d 1 h 46 m
    Quote Originally Posted by mortinuk View Post
    ow_that_hurt


    Well, for you to say that suggests that either you have not read the link or you don’t understand the points made.

    Water boils at 100 C. A true fact? Or is there something else you need to know?

    As you say one of us doesn't quite understand.
    You are trying to prove to a poster who dare to use the word "fact" that by doing so he is somehow miss placed - possibly a brick short of a load compared to your superior intelligence which you reflected in your post.
    Your link is for a debating site.
    There is a clue in the URL albeit a subtle one.
    http://www.debate.org
    The specific link you gave debates whether there are facts or not.
    It attempts to give a balanced view by presenting both sides of the story.
    It does not enter into deliberations or judgment or form bias because that is not its purpose.
    It is for debate and does not form a conclusion one way or the other leaving that to the reader.
    You may choose to cite as many examples as you wish but...
    For the above reasons as previous You have therefore NOT proven your case.
    Google is not always your friend...
    PhilX
    Last edited by ow_that_hurt; 16-10-2017 at 10:32.

  40. #240
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    South East England
    Posts
    105
    Time Online
    1 d 1 h 46 m
    Quote Originally Posted by BadAttitude View Post
    Pure water boils at 100C at 1 atmosphere of pressure.
    Facts tend to be time conscious don't they?
    Possibly once upon a time inserting a freshly made hot bread poulitice up the anus was a proven way of curing boils, warts, syphilis, restore weak eyesight while simultaneously keeping the devil at bay. Since then society and science have moved us on to what are now regarded as better alternatives. However.... back in the day I'm sure those with a malady would be heating that bread poultice because it was a FACT it would cure them.
    PhilX

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
 
 
 
[Output: 237.74 Kb. compressed to 228.95 Kb. by saving 8.79 Kb. (3.70%)]